029: Two Generations of Women in Tech Leadership

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:00:00) - I did not think I was capable of that, but I had colleagues who I got to know really well, and they said, of course you can do that. That doesn't sound crazy to me. You know, they went to Ivy Leagues or Stanford, and I was like, okay, they are in circles where they feel like, yeah, anything is possible if you just figure it out. And that kind of rubbed off on me. And that's kind of what I tell my clients, too. Now, you know, like, of course you can do anything you want to do. That's the most powerful mindset to build from.

Christopher Nelson (00:00:34) - Welcome to Tech Careers and Money Talk. I'm your host, Christopher Nelson. And I've been in the tech industry for 20 plus years. And I'm excited to share with you today my friend Shabnam Golmohammadi Shabnam is a career coach now for women in technology, helping them get unstuck and move forward. But she has a very interesting story and a lot of lessons learned that I want to share with you.

Christopher Nelson (00:00:57) - In the first half of the show, we're going to talk to Shah and understand what it was like for her growing up with parents who are in tech. She had parents that immigrated to this country, started working in technology, had to learn about the money, had to learn how to grow their career, and both of them exited full time employment in their 50s. So they did something right now. Shah herself went in, had a full career working at Deloitte and then also at Uber for many years, working in their strategy around UberEats. She then transitioned into an impact role where she's now outside of tech, helping women in tech understand how to navigate it. Because her mom worked in tech, she worked in tech. So she has a couple generations of knowledge to lead into that. But she also has some tactics that we can all use to make sure that we're getting unstuck when it comes to working in tech. Excited to share this episode with you? Let's get into it right now. Welcome to this episode of Tech Careers and Money Talk.

Christopher Nelson (00:01:59) - I'm excited to introduce everybody today to Shabnam Goel Mohammadi, who is an executive coach for Women in Tech that helps women move into leadership roles with confidence. And what's exciting about Shabnam is that she's a second generation tech employee. She grew up around her dinner table hearing conversations about tech, engineering and money. And I'm excited to dig into this story with you today. Welcome, Shab.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:02:29) - Thank you. Thanks, Christopher, for having me.

Christopher Nelson (00:02:33) - Oh my pleasure, my pleasure. I'm excited to have this conversation and learn more about you and some of these experiences. Because for all of us, especially for myself, not going up, growing up around tech, not understanding the equity side, the money side, what it could all really mean. Stepping into this was very foreign. So I am fascinated and intrigued to hear your story of what it was like growing up around the kitchen table of engineers, software engineers, and working in tech?

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:03:07) - Yeah, you know, I have a lot of stories. And it's funny because, yes, we're around the dinner table, but my parents worked really late.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:03:15) - And, you know, I have a lot of feelings around the industry and how, you know, a lot of us end up giving so much time into working for other people in this kind of landscape of what tech is like because of that equity piece. Right? Because we feel like owners of the company ourselves in some way. So, yeah, let's dig in.

Christopher Nelson (00:03:38) - Let's dig in. And so, I mean, even starting right there, I mean, I'm, you know, today we understand that working in tech is an exciting front row seat to the future and at the same time easily sucks us into a 24 by seven lifestyle. And the benefit means that we are part owners in the company. So you write those of us who think like, own or have that big equity share, we want to go that extra mile. I mean, what was that like? I'm imagining in the late 80s, early 90s with your parents, what was it like back then for people working in tech?

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:04:16) - It was hard.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:04:17) - My parents have an interesting story right? They were first, they're not first generation. Sorry. They're immigrants. I'm a first generation American. And as immigrants, they just kind of happened into computer science. It was a brand new major at their university, and they were like, okay, this is like math. We don't have to really know English that well to succeed in this field. And so that's how they ended up in tech. And they moved my mom out at her job. She worked at Xerox in the 80s. They moved her out to Palo Alto from Texas. And she gave it everything. I mean, both of my parents spent so much time working, and it was because they really felt like, okay, we need to set our family up for success. We don't have very much money. We moved here from a different country. We can't go home because they moved from Iran and they could never go back because of the revolution that happened there. So they said, all right, we're just burning, you know, we burn the ships for lack of a better term.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:05:21) - And we got to make it work here. And they didn't have, you know, generational wealth from their parents. Right? They wanted to create that for themselves. And they said, okay. Working in an industry like tech where we didn't have to know English that well, and where they actually are giving a lot of money to people who are doing this type of work and equity, that's going to be huge. And so that's why they were so committed to working so hard, and it was really a big part of our life, their jobs.

Christopher Nelson (00:05:54) - Wow. Did they. How did they come to understand the value of not just getting these high salaries, but also the equity that went with it?

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:06:04) - Yeah, that's a good question. And I think it really came down to just being in the right place at the right time. So like, you know, I don't think they really knew it back then. I think it was just something they were like, oh yeah, this is going to be good.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:06:18) - But my dad worked at startups. One of those startups got acquired by Cisco, and in the late 90s Cisco popped off. And that was really like the thing I think that pushed them out of just being like, you know, lower middle class into upper middle class, right? That was kind of what really changed their life. Being at the right place, at the right time, at the right company, you know. And so I think from that point, it wasn't like they were always like these, you know, smart investors. But I think from that point they said, okay, we really need to make this a priority. And we really want to understand the financial markets.

Christopher Nelson (00:06:57) - And I think that's interesting because I see that a lot of technology employees where they go to work for the high salary, they get the equity. It's interesting. They understand conceptually, okay, I have some ownership shares, but then when the people who have that event where all of a sudden it radically increases in value when they see themselves starting to move up economically, that is then the moment where they say, okay, we need to think about this differently.

Christopher Nelson (00:07:26) - What? So for yourself, thinking about what it was like, you know, how did the conversations change around that? Was that something that was and now I don't want to say dinner table conversation because I know that people were looking at working late, but were those conversations that came up in the house? Was there a focus on we're building this, we want to teach you what this is and understand how you can do it too.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:07:52) - Definitely. As I got older, I think when I was much younger, it wasn't like they just had all this money, right? It was stressful. Still, there was a lot of money stress in our life. And so I think my mom was the one who really stepped up and said, I gotta figure this out and I need to learn how to make this work for the family. Um, she also worked at Great Company. She worked at Apple in the 90s. You know, I think Steve Jobs had just come back at that point. She was there before he was there, and then he had just come back and she was in the same room as him.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:08:28) - And then she moved to Adobe, and she was there for 15 years, and she had just this drive to say, okay, if I don't want to stay in this, because I think she was starting to be like, this is a hard place to work. You know, I'm giving all of my time to my work. And she has a very strong work ethic and she loves getting lost in her work, don't get me wrong, but I think she kind of saw the writing on the wall. So then she said, let me take a step back and figure out how to make these things work. And I know as I got older and I became a teenager, those conversations were a lot more prevalent where she was kind of sitting me down and being like, really? Once you start working, you really want to start thinking about these things. And I was always like, what? Like, you know, mom, I'm just thinking about college. Like, I'm not thinking about work.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:09:17) - So that was always funny. But I grew up watching CNBC, you know, the money market. Like I was always like I remember very vividly, actually one morning where I was sitting there in their room watching the TV with CNBC on, and I said, what is why? Why do stocks go up? And I don't think they could really explain it to me. Like I and I still feel like there's really not a good explanation for what moves the market, to be honest.

Christopher Nelson (00:09:49) - Well, right, right. It's yeah, sentiment and other things. But I hear you. Yeah. There's no cohesiveness. Reason for that. But so does your mom's having more conversations with you. I do want to take a step back and think about, you know, 80s. 90s. What was your dad's experience like in tech versus your mom's?

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:10:12) - I think my dad was extremely stressed out, working in tech more than my mom was. He always remained an individual contributor and he was not interested in going into management.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:10:24) - I think he just wanted to do the work and not deal with the people, which I get. And my mom was in management, so they had two different career paths as well, you know. But I think my dad, it was extremely stressful for him. He always worked at startups, right? So that was just a different landscape. My mom went into bigger tech. That being said, I think he really liked his coworkers and he got along with them really well. And from that perspective, it was easy for him to fit in. What wasn't easy was the amount of work that he had to do, and I just know it had an impact on his health. And that actually really changed him and made him take a step back. Because now when I talk to my dad, his whole thing is like, don't worry about work. Like, you know, like, don't worry. But that was not who he was in the 80s and 90s. You know, he was like working all the time.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:11:20) - It felt like morning to night. He was just constantly on call as an engineer, too. Right. So he'd have his moments where he kind of couldn't sleep. So it just took a really big toll on him. And for my mom, being a woman in tech, that was like a whole different thing. I mean, she kind of had to harden herself because she was just working completely with men. So not only was she an immigrant, she was also, you know, in a heavily male dominated industry more than it is now. I mean, there were very few female engineers. And then she had to manage a lot of these men eventually when she moved into people management. Right. And so I feel like I always just heard stories about these people. She was working with them, and they became like these characters. Oh, yes. You know, like, oh, this guy or, you know, oh, this is what's happening. This is a drama, you know? And I think it was just a lot for her as well.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:12:26) - But she handled it with grace. She was extremely professional and she was very good at her job. But I saw a different side of her. Right. She's my mom. And I saw how difficult it was truly to be a woman in tech.

Christopher Nelson (00:12:42) - And so and so obviously challenging hard from a home environment. You're learning about the money that is changing things. What about the exciting parts of it mean there were obviously successes that happened along the way. There was exciting innovation that was happening during that time. What was some of what was some of that, you know, positive emotional exhaust that you were getting off of that too, because there was obviously something that kept them there as well.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:13:11) - Right? I think my mom is a huge fan of technology and is a futurist. I think she would call herself that. She just loves technology, and she thinks it is like she's more tech savvy than me. You know, people kind of always joke, oh, I have to show my mom how to do this thing on the computer.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:13:29) - No, my mom would show me, like she still schools me and uses tech, but she just thinks it's the way of the future. She thinks this is inevitable, that you know everything. Like the computer. She worked at Apple, right? So we always had a laptop, you know, like, I kind of grew up very much using technology. And, you know, she was always the first one to get the iPhone, the iPod, you know, like all of these things, like the consumer technology was so exciting for us because she worked in consumer technology, even with Adobe, like we grew up using these softwares. Right. And I feel so lucky. Like that was so amazing for me to be able to just be in that world. And as soon as things were coming out, it was like, oh yeah, this is now how we live. We use these things, you know? They have such a connected home. Still, like, everything is so high tech that I'm like, this is too much.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:14:25) - I don't want Alexa, you know, like, even when Alexa came out, I was like, I do not want Alexa listening to me, to be honest, but but, you know, she she she was there but you know. Yeah, they loved it. And you know, my dad too, he really loved technology. Like they just were just so amazed with how they were kind of like in the front row of making a lot of this stuff happen. And granted, he was more on the, you know, back end kind of hardware side of things. So it wasn't like we were always experiencing the work that he was putting in, but it was still innovating for the industries that he was a part of. And that was pretty cool to see too. And they really felt like they were making an important impact. And they and they really were they were.

Christopher Nelson (00:15:14) - And the result of this is what you've shared with me is that they were then in their 50s and they were able to, you know, I call it graduation.

Christopher Nelson (00:15:23) - Traditional people call it retirement, but they were able to then move on to a new life beyond 9 to 5.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:15:29) - Yeah, that's right. For my dad. It was a part of it because he got laid off. I mean, we experienced a lot of layoffs in our family. I kind of alluded to how the money was kind of stressful sometimes because, you know, they used to lay people off before the holidays every year. I don't know, that changed. So it's heartbreaking for me to see people experiencing that now. But I also think it's important to highlight, like this was a cycle that families were going through for like 20 years, right? It was like, yeah, something recently I think in the last ten years changed. But it was always like, okay, you're not performing or we need to make budget cuts. We're letting you go. And it was like right before Christmas. So that was really stressful. But my dad got to leave tech because of all the equity that my parents accumulated and the smart investing that they did, and they really lived below their means.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:16:27) - They weren't. You know, spending a lot of money on stuff we didn't need or living super luxuriously all the time.

Christopher Nelson (00:16:36) - And I think that's key to point out, because sometimes people and I know myself, you know, spent, you know, growing up in Northern California, living in the Silicon Valley, people believe, oh, you need so much to retire because of the cost of everything. It's like, well, actually, if you live below your means you are very smart with your money, and by being smart, like you don't have to be a genius like you just have to be doing the right things consistently over time. You can actually then get to a good place in retirement early and still have a lot of life to enjoy and a lot of things to enjoy.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:17:10) - Yeah, completely agree. They don't spend a ton of money. Like they just started flying. Flying business class. And my dad's in his 70s. You know, he was like finally like, I got to lay down, we're going to Europe.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:17:22) - And I was like, yeah, do that. But they still are looking for a deal. They're not just spending the money like they're taking time to plan the trips early, you know, making sure they find the right thing. So that's just who they are. That's how they live. I think that has to do with the fact that they're also immigrants. You know, I think that was a big part of our story. It was like, work hard, don't spend all your money and invest it because you never know what's going to happen. You want to make sure you have something that you can fall back on.

Christopher Nelson (00:17:53) - Well, and it's interesting too, because, you know, I'm just trying to draw a parallel. So my wife is like you, a first generation American and my father in law, he had a plan and he retired at 53. And yeah, and he had a very clear plan. And again, the whole way, living below his means, you know, having just a very simple, straightforward investing strategy, executing it for, you know, 20 plus years with, with a lot of focus.

Christopher Nelson (00:18:21) - And, and they did that. And so there's so much that all of us can learn from that because I, I just think that many of us, you know, can easily put, you know, work to be this, this, this idol or this thing that defines us when in reality, I don't think it should.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:18:41) - Oh, you're so right. Yeah. And I think for this industry that's especially hard to, you know, separate from, you know, like I was saying, you become an owner of this company in some way. You stay on this career path for so long, and then all of a sudden you're like, oh my God, this is just completely my identity now. And to be able to leave that is extremely difficult. It becomes enormously difficult to just walk away from this industry.

Christopher Nelson (00:19:12) - But it is in. The reality is though, people don't have to walk away completely. And this is one of the things I try to share with people. I'm sure you do as well in your coaching as you can actually transition to consulting, to educating, to advising, to investing.

Christopher Nelson (00:19:30) - I mean, there's so many ways that you can play a role inside of tech. That doesn't mean you're in a 9 to 5 position or you are a founder who is, you know, trying to build something. There are multiple dimensions. And honestly, the ecosystem needs great people that are in those other positions as well to see this whole thing move forward.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:19:54) - Yeah, that's a great point. I mean, I'm doing that right.

Christopher Nelson (00:19:58) - No, we both are. I transitioned into education. That's where my passion is. I want people to understand how this career and money thing works together. And I know in the second half of the show, we're going to really get into your consulting. What I'm interested in, though, is right now. So you saw this, you saw the challenge. You saw you saw the good, you saw the bad, you saw everything that came with it. And when the time came and you graduated from school, you're like, I'm going in. I'm adding in.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:20:27) - Yeah. My main goal in school, I studied accounting and management information systems. Um, my goal doing that was to get a job. That was it. I was like, I went to private school and, you know, my mom did not let me take any loans out. She learned how to do options trading and made, like supplemental income off that. Like that's a whole nother story. But she was like, that's.

Christopher Nelson (00:20:54) - You, me and your mom on a podcast episode. Let's have that. I want to do that one for sure.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:20:59) - Yeah, I think that's a great idea because she can really nerd out on that. I'm not even.

Christopher Nelson (00:21:06) - Yes. I'm not joking either. Let's. Yeah.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:21:08) - Like that's what she does now full time. So it was like I always told her I'm like, mom, isn't it great? I went to such an expensive school and I barely got any scholarships. You wouldn't have had to learn the skill that you live off, you know, and she's like, you're so right.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:21:23) - Anyways, I decided I needed to get a job, so I went. To work at Deloitte, and they were heavily recruiting students because, you know, campus recruiting was a big part of their strategy. And, you know, I have nothing bad to say about Deloitte, but it's definitely like a tough place to work. It's like really long hours, longer than I worked in tech. And I got a lot of great client experience and I worked with clients in the tech industry. So my goal was always to pivot into the industry at some point. And then I got to a point at Deloitte where I was like, I really just don't think I'm good here. I got to go, um, for personal reasons. And it was stressful. And I was like, I don't think this is the right career path for me. And so that's kind of when I sprayed and prayed my resume everywhere and it worked. It was 2016 and I was like, you know what? I'm going to just apply to all these big companies.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:22:23) - And I didn't really have a strategy. I was like, I'm just going to take what I did here and try and pivot it or, you know, speak to it in a way that's tailored to these roles. And thankfully, Uber was hiring and Uber was growing their UberEats division. It was pretty new. And it was the corporate strategy role there. And I was like, all right, I'm going to just apply. And I still have imposter syndrome around that. I was like, I don't know how I got that job in the best way. Like it was just like, I'm so thankful for that role. Like it was an amazing place to work despite, you know, maybe what you would have read in the news. I met incredible people. It really elevated my career, and I learned so much about what it takes to work in a, you know, fast growing consumer tech company. And I wouldn't have traded that experience for anything.

Christopher Nelson (00:23:23) - Well, and let's talk so many of us, when we transition, you know, it can be transition from college to tech or it can be transitioning from other jobs.

Christopher Nelson (00:23:34) - Like you, I did the first half of my career at Accenture before I transitioned into working for high tech companies. We can feel the imposter syndrome, but the reality is, if right, that's actually normal in the sense of it's normal to feel the imposter syndrome because like anything else, we haven't had the role. We may not understand the pace. We may not understand how to be effective right out of the gate. The flip side is the hiring manager, the hiring team that has a lot of skill. They selected you. And so how did you think that's so valuable for people to understand? But what was your personal journey to go from imposter to belonging?

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:24:22) - Oh, it was very tough. I mean, the first 12 months I worked at Uber, I constantly thought I was going to get fired. And it wasn't because my boss was saying anything to me. It was my own story. I was, and I'm still like this, you know, I compare myself to other people doing what I'm doing.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:24:43) - And I saw, okay, all of my colleagues, for the most part, went to very prestigious schools, or they worked at very prestigious companies. And for some reason I just didn't see myself in the same light. So it took a long time to finally feel like, okay, I belong here and I'm making an impact. And that really made me overwork and want to overcompensate for that feeling of I'm not good enough. You know, I just put in so much time. I learned everything I could as quickly as I could, and if I got any bad feedback, I was like, this is a, you know, or, you know, like, I'm like, I better pack on my desk, you know, and, you know, that's that's really hard to work through. But I think just my strategy was honestly just feeling as connected as I could to the people I worked with and feeling like I built a community there and, and just creating value for those people. Um, that really helped me feel like, okay, I belong here.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:25:49) - I'm not an imposter. I got to know these people on a personal level. I stopped putting them on this pedestal, you know, of comparing who I am to them. And I wasn't like an A-plus performer, to be honest. I probably was good. I wasn't like the person who was going to get promoted quickly in the company, but I felt like, okay, I belong here, I'm making an impact and people are giving me good feedback because of what I'm doing. And that just takes time, I think it is, you know, if I was just to bottom line what I just said, it's just time.

Christopher Nelson (00:26:24) - It takes time. Yeah. To fit into it. And then also I think we have to see ourselves building skills being successful. I heard recently that we build confidence the more we see ourselves, use the skills that we learn in, in their application, and the more we do that. And then you're getting your right, more positive than negative feedback. That's really how that looks and feels.

Christopher Nelson (00:26:49) - And you know, it was a six plus year run at Uber. I mean you then started experiencing promotions and growing your career there.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:26:58) - Yeah, I was lucky. I found an amazing manager who saw a lot of potential in me. And he really worked for him for four years at Uber and then he moved on to different companies. But when I got to work for him, I felt like, yeah, like I have someone in my corner. And that gave me so much confidence. That gave me the most confidence. I even presented it to the CEO of the company because he was like, go for it. You know, I want you to do this, and I don't think a lot of people can say they had that experience. And his team, like, we built that team together, but we were so loyal to him because he was. I truly feel so grateful to have worked with someone like him. He. Was really just an incredible leader, an amazing coach and someone that I think I know, if I look at him as the model of what an amazing leader can do.

Christopher Nelson (00:27:58) - That's such an inspiring story because so many of us, you know, we do. We find like when you land with that great leader, that and I truly believe the great ones are, whether you want to call it a servant leader or I prefer the term coaching leader, somebody who is going to say, I have a team and I want to be able to get the best out of everyone, and they look at all the individuals and see all of their unique values and coach into them and bring the best out of everyone. That is, it can always be a period of just dramatic growth in your career, and it's not mean the company creates, I'd say, the environment for you to go and do great things, but it's the leader that then pulls the best out of you.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:28:41) - That's so true. It's a.

Christopher Nelson (00:28:43) - Great story.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:28:44) - He did that for everybody on the team, truly. I mean, it was like we were making a huge impact at the company. And I just think it was such a special time in my career.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:28:55) - And I think if you talk to anyone on the team, they would say the same thing.

Christopher Nelson (00:29:00) - So then you're there, you're experiencing great growth, great opportunity at some point. What was the incident that made you realize I now need to leave and go do something else?

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:29:14) - Well, I think there were a lot of individual data points that I started noticing. For me, that was pointing me in the direction of I probably want to do something that's a lot more related to people strategy versus, you know, corporate strategy. And I loved being a people manager. I just thought that was like the best part of my job, to be honest. What I didn't love was, as you know, when you become a lot more senior in a company, politics becomes a big part of the job. And our company, you know, especially our division of Uber Eats during the pandemic, it just became like people started to pay attention to us at the company. Finally, you know, it used to be like, oh, you know, you guys are just this little part of, you know, Uber.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:30:08) - But then it became a bigger part of the company than the rides business, right? So things started to shift. A lot more attention was on us in our little felt like startup at the company did not feel like a startup anymore. It went from, I feel like we were doing less building and a lot more of what you do at a bigger company, which is, you know, meetings and just trying to get everyone to align on something that just needs to happen. That became a big part of my job, and I wasn't that I couldn't do it, but I just kind of looked around and I said, is this really how I want to be spending my time? And, you know, I think we all did a lot of soul searching for the most part during 2020. Yeah. And, you know, I took a lot of different data points, like, you know, these personality tests, the strengthsfinder, you know, the Myers-Briggs, the Enneagram, like all of these things that the company really had us doing.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:31:05) - It all kind of pointed to me either going into therapy or social work.

Christopher Nelson (00:31:11) - I said, no.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:31:13) - I was like, I still want to make money, to be honest. And so, I don't know, I think I had a friend who left and I spoke to her and she pointed me towards coaching and I took some classes. I learned this new skill and I just haven't felt so alive, you know, like that was like what I had been thinking. I was like, I haven't felt so alive in such a long time. I felt so much energy, just so much excitement when I was learning about it and doing it. And so I was like, I got to follow that. I got to trust that that's something I gotta do, you know? And my mind said, start a business. I never really thought I wanted to be an entrepreneur, but, you know, you just have to take it one step at a time and trust that those feelings and your intuition are pointing you in the right direction.

Christopher Nelson (00:32:03) - You know, it's really interesting because you had the experience at Uber where you started. You had a startup inside of a larger company. I know for myself, it was when I was at Accenture, there was a group of ten of us that started the Salesforce.com practice in 2004, where we took this SMB company to the enterprise, and as that company evolved, so did the services offering grew and expanded. It became a, you know, now a multibillion dollar book of business for Accenture. And when you have those experiences, sometimes we don't realize that we're. We're having entrepreneurship that has a lot of guardrails on it that has, you know, a big, big backer that's in house. But it is entrepreneurship and we can get the bug from doing that. That helps us see, okay, this is how it happened. And then I know for myself, I ended up going on to, you know, five startup companies after that and really getting more of the bug before I transitioned. But sometimes, you know, just just a taste of that can get us excited about opportunities and owning our time, owning our impact and all of those benefits.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:33:16) - You know, I think it was really a great point, Christopher, because it was not only the fact that I worked at UberEats, like when we were barely a business, it was the people who worked there. And I think those people are. When I got to surround myself with those people, I, I up leveled what I thought was possible for myself. You know, like all these people were like, yeah, of course you can go start a business. And I was like, what do you mean?

Christopher Nelson (00:33:44) - I was like.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:33:44) - What do you mean? Of course? Yeah, it was crazy.

Christopher Nelson (00:33:48) - I mean, seriously, how like when you surround yourself. I mean, this has happened to me multiple times. And being in and out, you know, you get this opportunity to see when you're in these entrepreneurial environments and you're surrounding yourself with these people that are thinking, growing, building all the time, and they speak to you. It's incredibly motivating or beyond motivation, like it lets you see what you're really capable of.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:34:15) - That's right. I did not think I was capable of that. Like, you know, like I was always like, oh my God, I'm going to get fired the first year. But I had colleagues who I got to know really well. And they said, of course you can do that. Like that. That doesn't sound crazy to me. And a lot of those colleagues were at the, you know, they went to Ivy Leagues or Stanford. And I was like, okay, you know, I realize that they have been in circles of people who have been doing that, you know, and they are in circles where they feel like, yeah, anything is possible if you just figure it out. And that kind of rubbed off on me. And that's kind of what I tell my clients, too. Now, you know, like, of course you can do anything you want to do. That's the most powerful mindset to build from. Is it easy all the time? No, but at least you if you don't have that piece right, you're never going to take the next step.

Christopher Nelson (00:35:07) - That's true, that's true. We're going to hold ourselves back. And so now I do want to take a quick break. And then when we come back, I want to dig into the coaching that you're doing. And what are some takeaways that we can give people today that can help make sure that whether it's women, whether it's men, that they can get unstuck and move forward in their careers, we'll be right. Sounds great. Yeah okay. Okay. And welcome back. We are back with Shab and we are going to now talk about some of the coaching that she does. And so where I want to start first is you help coach women in tech. And we all know that the environment for women in tech is very challenging. Help us understand what give us the view to 2023. What is it like for women in tech today?

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:35:54) - Well, I think a lot of women in tech who have been in the industry for ten, 15 years are starting to leave. And that's the scary part for me, because what I'm noticing is, well, it's exciting and it is scary.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:36:09) - Scary because this industry, as you know, we've talked about, has such an impact on 90% of the world's day to day. Right? And to me, when I hear more women are leaving, it's just going to be harder for more women to even make it when it's becoming less and less diverse. And so I get a little bit panicked from that. But I'm also excited in some ways, because a lot of these women are going and doing things for themselves. And so it's not the easiest place to work. Still, I think it's become marginally better from when, you know, my mom might have been in tech, but the landscape is tough, I would say still. Which is why, you know, I have a business that people require, but it's very challenging, I think, to navigate making it in this, you know, this landscape and to make it into exact leadership.

Christopher Nelson (00:37:11) - Yeah. And so what do women have to sacrifice to fit in?

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:37:18) - They have to sacrifice their femininity.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:37:21) - And I don't mean, you know, wearing, like, the clothes, you know? I mean, like, a lot of women have to become men to be successful. And I don't think this is actually just tech, by the way, I think this is true for a lot of corporate environments, but we basically have to change who we are. You know, empathy has not been valued. You know, listening has not been valued. It's always like you got to speak up. You got to be seen. And that's true. You know, you can't just hide and think you're going to make it to the next level in your career. But I think the way we go about doing that has been to emulate what men have done and what has made men successful, because that's kind of all we've seen. There are very few women and I think there are more women now, which is the good news. But there are very few women that we can look to and say, oh, she is doing it in a way that I feel is true to her.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:38:26) - She's authentic, and I resonate with how she is leading and how she's built her career.

Christopher Nelson (00:38:32) - Because sometimes when you see some of these women that are being successful, what you see from, from your perspective is that they've had to then adapt to this environment. And it's something that you can't relate to. Is that what I'm hearing?

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:38:47) - Yeah, exactly. I think we've seen a lot of women. Just like I, you know, maybe they don't want a family so they don't have kids, which I think a lot of women, you know, when they do have kids, they're like, I just took a huge step back in my career, right? Um, and that sucks. You know, like, there's nothing else to say about that. It's just like, that's a really hard thing for women who are reentering the workforce to do. Or when they come back from mat leave, they're like, well, I've just been made a little bit obsolete, you know, and I have to really figure out a way to stake my claim again in this career, in my career.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:39:26) - But yeah, exactly what you said. I think we just don't have a lot of, you know, I like to call them expanders to expand what is possible for us as women in this industry, as women who want to take on bigger leadership roles and make a bigger impact.

Christopher Nelson (00:39:45) - It. What about is there a lot of women or are there women out there today that are then making decisions to create their own startups to go in, or is that a challenge too?

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:39:57) - Oh no. I think a lot of women are doing that, and it's very much paired closely with more female led VCs. I think the two are kind of happening in tandem, because a lot of women who were trying to start their own, you know, ventures that needed venture capital, were getting a lot of no's, mostly no's, because, you know, venture capital is also male dominated. And when you're building products that are supposed to be for women, you know, it's just hard for men to really understand because they don't have the same problems and we shouldn't expect them to.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:40:33) - But at the same time, I think it's exciting because they are going on and starting new ventures related to like feminine health care or, you know, products that just serve women. Even the beauty industry that's exploded and there's like, that's not tech, but there's just so many tech adjacent companies in these different fields that are popping up in healthcare and things like that. Finance, you know, all of this is happening, and I'm so thankful I met so many of these women at Uber who have gone on to start their own ventures, which is amazing.

Christopher Nelson (00:41:11) - Yeah, I've definitely found that when you I know for myself, being at companies that were successful, experienced success and people understand what that feels like, they can then go on and do their own ventures. And that's amazing to see.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:41:26) - Yeah, I agree, and I think we started very like the network from Uber was so incredible too. So I'm seeing a lot of them hiring, you know, from the women of Uber network, which is very inspiring to see.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:41:39) - And I think, you know, your network is your net worth. And so the relationships that we develop there have really paid dividends for so many of us.

Christopher Nelson (00:41:50) - It's so true. So how would you advise men to be allies in these types of situations? How can we help?

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:41:59) - Well, you know, like I was saying, I had an incredible manager who is a man. So, you know, it's like it's happening. It's already happening. Right? I think just being empathetic and listening and giving women a chance to speak up and like, have their voice heard is a big part of what men can do to be allies in the tech field, you know, and also treating us with respect. I mean, it's very basic. It's like just being a good human right. Like, I don't think it's that complicated. I just think it comes down to just having a bit more empathy and knowing that our experience will be inherently different than yours. Right. And that's okay.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:42:42) - Like, I don't think many of us want to be men, but at the same time, I think it's just about, you know, I think it's just about taking the time and really listening to what we have to say, you know, and and taking it into consideration and valuing the things that we have to say. Because women are very intuitive and a lot of companies in tech, they're very data driven. And I, you know, hear that intuition is not needed. But before you have data, you need intuition. You know, I was really told straight up by like a leader in, at Uber. Like we don't care about intuition. We need the data. And I said we don't have the data. The languages don't have data. You don't always have data, you know, and, you know, being at a data driven company, that's hard to hear. But you have to, you know, what comes before data is a little bit of intuition. Having a hypothesis, right.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:43:37) - Just like following what you think the consumer wants, right? Knowing who your customer is like women takes the time to do this. And I think it's just to give us a voice, give us a platform to speak up. And don't be dismissive. That's all.

Christopher Nelson (00:43:56) - Now are you are you seeing a I don't know, a trend is too benign of a word, but is there a movement around diversity and inclusion, you know, looking to, you know, and isn't there data that supports the fact that if we get, you know, more and broader voices that we can make a, you know, greater impact in healthier businesses because of that.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:44:21) - 100%, the data is there. This isn't just intuition now, right?

Christopher Nelson (00:44:27) - We do have some data now. Yeah, we.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:44:29) - Actually have data. Um, and I'm not like an expert on this data. But I do know that it's, it's powerful to have a lot of different types of thinking. And it's not just having to do with gender.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:44:42) - It's like hiring people from different countries. Background, you know, hire people who worked in different industries. You don't want to just have the same type of thinking. And you know what? Um, that's why Silicon Valley became Silicon Valley, because, you know, companies were kind of just like hiring from each other, and they were just like became this, like whole, like germination process of ideas and innovation was happening because the talent was moving constantly, because talent knows that they're going to make more money when they jump around, you know? And I think people in Silicon Valley knew that earlier than anybody. And so, yeah, like I think for the most part, it's just important to meet different people, learn from them and not hire echo chambers, not hire people that look and talk and think exactly like you. Because then it's just like, what's the point?

Christopher Nelson (00:45:37) - Well, and you can ultimately be doing a disservice to your department or division or team, whatever you're hiring for, because then you can become too rigid, right? And that's right.

Christopher Nelson (00:45:49) - And not be productive. Yeah.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:45:51) - Just and it's I think it comes down to just being like, let's just all be a little bit lower ego here. We don't need to hang out with ourselves all day. This is really about making the biggest impact we can. And, you know, getting to know different types of people and tech is pretty diverse for the most part. I think when you take a step back and say, who is even working here? It's all types of people. And they've always been in tech actually a lot more. Um, just my last point on this, it's like tech has always had people from different walks of life and different backgrounds and different sexual orientation and gender, like it was actually a lot more accepting earlier on than I think in most industries. So we should celebrate that too.

Christopher Nelson (00:46:35) - We should. And do you see from your perspective, you know, primarily Silicon Valley, or are you seeing this from even a global perspective as, as there are influences where, you know, there's different countries in, you know, areas that are becoming more technically proficient, companies are becoming remote first.

Christopher Nelson (00:46:57) - And those types of things.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:46:58) - Yeah, I mean, I was on a global team at Uber, so I got to meet folks from every country for the most part that had Uber and Uber Eats. So I mean, I met so many people from Mexico, Australia, Japan, London, England and Amsterdam, and Amsterdam was like our European hub. And there's like people from all over Europe, in Africa, in the Middle East working there. It was like just an incredibly diverse talent pool. And that was one of the best parts of working at a global company. Besides getting paid to go to London and Amsterdam.

Christopher Nelson (00:47:37) - Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, I really enjoyed that trip too. So. That's what's happening with women in tech. Let's transition now to help women get unstuck in their careers and help them move forward. And I think that a lot of the things, you know, looking over some of your coaching materials, it can help everybody. So what are some of the things that you do to help women and help people get unstuck?

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:48:06) - I think if I was to boil it down to a few words, it would be changing perspectives.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:48:12) - And, you know, I think when we feel stuck, our whole life is just like, I have no way out of this, you know, this is just so hard. I don't see a way through my situation. And there's always a way through. It's just a matter of taking time to explore other ways of being and other ways of doing, and to really understand who you are and what you bring to the table. And so it's really about building that confidence, looking at your situation from a new perspective, and challenging your long held beliefs about who you are and why you feel like you have to stay stuck in a situation. You don't have to. You don't have to do anything. We are all so very powerful as individuals, and I think knowing that and owning our power and knowing that we have the, you know, authority to make decisions for ourselves that will impact our own lives, that's ultimately the goal. And the outcomes are very specific to, you know, I want to get a promotion, maybe, or I want to change my role or whatever.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:49:15) - I want to pivot. I want to have a higher salary. Those are also outcome driven, which is great. That's what people really understand. But really coaching at its core is. Finding your power and knowing that you can do anything. And if you really feel like anything is possible, nothing can stop you.

Christopher Nelson (00:49:35) - And do you find that in this process? A lot of it comes to unwinding some self beliefs that in tapes I always call them tapes because sometimes we get programming that's put in there. And in this, these soundtracks and things that play in our mind a lot of it have to do with some of that inner work to let go of some, some commonly held beliefs we have before.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:50:01) - Absolutely. I feel like most of the first few sessions are completely focused on, you know, unraveling those wires that we've kind of, you know, got stuck in our heads about what we think is true about ourselves or why we can't do something. You know, and I think that takes some time because you've been living this way for how many years? You know, depending on the person I work with.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:50:28) - So of course, it's not going to just change in one conversation. It takes practice. It takes, like you said, deprogramming. You know who you are because what you got, you hear, is not going to get you where you want to go.

Christopher Nelson (00:50:41) - That's right. That's right. And a lot of it. And that's where I've been talking about this concept recently with, with a friend of mine where we always think, okay, the next to get to the next step, I have to build, build, build. But sometimes we need to excavate or we actually need to take down a part of this house, this construct that we've built. And we actually need to now rebuild that before we can get to the next level. And it sounds like in your coaching that's part of this first step is let's let's excavate down and let's make sure that we are removing from your foundation anything that can, you know, weaken. It creates some flaws, some of these, these self beliefs that we have so that we can then move forward.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:51:26) - Yeah. That's right. I love that analogy about building a house. Like you just gotta get out all of the moldy pieces or, you know, like the foundational elements that just are not going to help you build a lot more on top of it. You know, it's going to break. So if you put a lot of pressure on yourself to build something new, and you're coming from a place of, I can't do this or this is so hard for me because of all of these beliefs that are not true, it's going to be hard to build. I mean, it's not going to your foundation, it's not going to hold it, and you're going to have to start over again. And, you know, there's nothing wrong with that. We all are on our own journeys, but. You. Ideally, you wouldn't need to do that because you're, you know, doing all the deprogramming work and really believing in yourself from the beginning.

Christopher Nelson (00:52:13) - And so once somebody gets to the point where they're, you know, understanding and know who they are, understand their strengths and, and they're focused on a goal, what are some of the things that you leverage to move people forward?

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:52:27) - Oh yeah.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:52:28) - Well this is the best part, right. Because, you know, you come to coaching because it's not just because you want to talk to me and like, you know, fix your beliefs. Nobody really comes and pays for that. That's like a part of the process. But the outcome you're getting, the outcome. You're getting the outcome you want, right? You're going out in the world and taking action. And my job is to support my clients in taking the most impactful action they can. Really seeing what we've been talking about in the coaching comes to life. In real life, you know, it's not just about the call or the conversation. It's about going out and doing the things we were discussing. So they are probably getting further in their career or they are applying to the roles that they're like, I couldn't do that. I don't have the right experience or I don't have, you know, the right level of, you know, expertise in this area, which they really did.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:53:22) - It's just about relooking at themselves, you know, from a different perspective. And so they are getting the outcomes and the results that they really came to coaching for. And that's the best part. And they are actually accelerating these five year goals that they had and doing it in 1 or 2 years. Right. They're taking these things where they're like, oh, it would be nice if I could try this eventually, right? And they're doing it because they're like, no, I'm feeling so good. And I'm feeling like anything is possible for me. And that's the goal. That's really what coaching is all about at its core.

Christopher Nelson (00:53:59) - Ultimately. Yeah. As for getting people to achieve that, how do you find people? Do you know, as they start climbing the ladder, you know, how do you coach them to create margin?

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:54:11) - Ooh. What do you mean by margin?

Christopher Nelson (00:54:13) - Margin is you, you know, trying to make sure that they don't slip into the 24 over seven lifestyle that you can in tech.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:54:21) - Oh yeah okay. Yeah. So this is a very good point that you bring up which is they could actually just continue this over work. Many of the clients that come to me, you know, I work primarily with women. They are tired of living that way. That's actually an outcome many of them are looking for. How do I do all these things without burning out? And so it's just about boundaries. Like it's pretty simple boundaries. I think when you can stop identifying fully with your work as your, you know, core personality, you can have better boundaries. And then it's a matter of, well, what is it that you want to do instead of work? A lot of people don't know. You know, a lot of us don't have hobbies. We don't have time for that. It's like, oh, you know, I have a client who moved from a company that valued overwork to a company that no longer, you know, it's like pretty chill for what she, as she's describing it, compared to the other place, she's like, wow, I can date, I can go to the gym.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:55:26) - I'm on a health journey. Like, you know, filling your time with things that matter to you and knowing your values is a big piece of that.

Christopher Nelson (00:55:34) - Right? There's a big transition from when you're at these companies where work fits everything, and then you sort of squeeze life into now there's room for life. And I think for many people I've seen that too, where it's relationship, journey, health, journey, maybe time for family. And then there's time to explore different, you know, things that they want to do, whether that's music. Ah. ET cetera. I mean, I think that's the beautiful thing about it, when you do start having a concept of, okay, I can actually put in a boundary and, and make it stick to that meaning. And it's a skill that most people don't realize. They think it's impossible. But like anything else, it's a skill. You have to understand what it is, how do you do it appropriately. And then you get practice.

Christopher Nelson (00:56:24) - Then you have confidence doing it. I remember when I started, when I had my young family and I started saying, okay, I want dinnertime to be sacred. Here's the time when I'm not going to be on email answering calls. Like you, I thought, okay, you know, four weeks of this, I'm going to get fired. No, I set the expectation very realistically. I let people understand what the boundary was. You know, here's what you do. If there is an emergency and make sure you respect what that is. And then that was in 2012, and that was something that I carried with me all the way through when my career, full time career in 2022 and, and it became something that then I could teach other people how to do. And it was very reasonable.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:57:10) - And I'm sure your team felt very lucky because you embodied that. I think when leaders don't embody that and they are, you know, constantly working, it's going to spill into how your team thinks they need to operate, and then they're going to burn out.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:57:26) - Right. And so that's a big part of leadership. Right.

Christopher Nelson (00:57:31) - Oh it's it's it's the biggest part. And I had this great conversation with Margaret Andrews who's a Harvard instructor who leads the Milo Center managing yourself leading others. And that is it's the core. And to your point that the team and the manager of the team is going to dictate that, because you're 100% correct. Is that when I started managing myself and I said, okay, hey, team, this is this is rules that apply to everybody, let's figure out what it is. How do we support each other on that? How do we make sure that our goals aren't compromised? But does everybody get to have healthy boundaries? You change the game. And one of the things that I advocate for people to do now is actually the same way that marketers create a customer avatar. I think technology employees need to have a manager avatar write down what you want your ideal manager to look like. What do you want so that when you're interviewing, you're then going to have the questions so that you understand, you know, how many dimensions is this person you're sitting across from? From your avatar? You should know that.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:58:37) - I'm going to steal that. That's a great idea.

Christopher Nelson (00:58:41) - No, I'm kidding it because it is. Because if you don't have it, if you're not sitting there across from somebody and saying, I argue that that's more important than the company that you're working for. The company is great, but if you're going to work for a great company and you interview somebody and they're ten degrees off from what you want as a manager, that's going to be a rough ride. Yeah. You and I both know this. Like you, we both have been there where it's like a great company, horrible manager. Ooh, that's going to hurt. Great company, great manager. Oh my. Like then you're like it. Could it be so good? Right. You people, then they wonder why, you know. And it's in environments like that where you have the most you. I had the richest life. I had the most, you know, success. There was a ton of like, hard work, but it was hard work on both sides because it allowed for me to be this integrated person with my life, my work.

Christopher Nelson (00:59:39) - And it was incredibly fulfilling all the way around.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:59:43) - Uh, so beautifully said. Yeah, I completely agree.

Christopher Nelson (00:59:48) - Thank you. Sometimes I steal the mic. Thank you.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (00:59:52) - No, I love it. That was great. I was like, I gotta get my notebook out and take some notes because that was really powerful.

Christopher Nelson (00:59:58) - That's right. Well, you'll get the recording, so it'll be there. Uh. But this is. This is why I love having conversations like this, this whole journey, you know, that you've been on. You know, showbiz is profound because you saw, like. I mean, this to me is to tie this together. It's like you saw the struggles your mother had. You saw the successes your moms had. You went into the same field of work, spent time there, learned it from the ground up, and now you're taking two generations, one of a vision and understanding coming down, one of personal experience to go and pour into women and help them be show up and be the best selves and move forward.

Christopher Nelson (01:00:46) - That's really that's really a life of impact.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (01:00:50) - Oh thank you. I mean, yeah, I actually never took a step back and really boiled it down like that. So I'm that was very profound to hear. But you're right. Like, I think I'm just really inspired by what women can do and think. Like I said, this industry isn't going anywhere. And I think if we have a lot more heart centered women who are making an impact and driving the decisions and creating the products that impact us all, that's going to be a win. You know? And I don't think it's just women. It's like we need more heart centered leaders in this space because I've seen what has happened with, you know, social media and young women and children. And I just kind of like, wow, that kind of got out of control pretty quickly. Who was really driving that? And how can we navigate away from those types of decisions being made in that kind of impact, being made into products that really are just a net win for all of us?

Christopher Nelson (01:01:52) - It's true.

Christopher Nelson (01:01:53) - And this industry is growing. It's growing by leaps and bounds because, as you said, some of these companies that are tech adjacent, are becoming tech companies. Ultimately, everything will evolve and have big pieces of tech to be able to conduct commerce in where we're headed. And so it's just continuing to grow. And I really appreciate having conversations with people like you who 've been inside the industry. And our main goal in focus is to help our people, people who love technology, who see the opportunity to work for equity, to do something impactful for their family and future generations, and who have a desire to be coaching leaders, servant leaders in the workplace, and leaders as you are, you know, said very well, leaders with a heart and a passion to coach people. They need people like us.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (01:02:51) - Yeah. I think what you're doing is amazing because there is not a lot of education for people who are even in tech around what they can do with their equity or how to make it work for them.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (01:03:05) - And it's a lot of money a lot of people are making, and they're still like, I have no idea what to do with this. I don't know what the right strategy is, and I'm lucky that I had my parents, but I have friends who, you know, they don't have that background and they're like, I just don't know how to move forward here. I don't know how to navigate this.

Christopher Nelson (01:03:23) - Yeah. And this is where for me, where I feel so passionate 100% is, you know, people who come into tech and all of a sudden they go from, you know, middle class, lower middle class, you know, or wherever they came from, immigrated to this country. And all of a sudden they go into an upper, you know, high net worth individual. We weren't taught. And it can come with more problems. And the solution is education and that's really my focus and I'm literally crafting a new mission. And vision is a mission. And the vision for this company is to continue to expand its tech careers and money.

Christopher Nelson (01:04:05) - There's going to be the talk. There's now news. I'm launching a publication, a weekly publication that's educating. And then going into next year, like you doing some coaches, some courses, because with education, I want to be able to equip people with the information they know to be able to make great decisions. And that doesn't mean they need to do it by themselves, but they also need to be educated on how to select the right providers. How do you ensure that incentives are aligned in those types of things? And I think when you have, you know, people like yourself who are leaning into the workplace and who are helping, you know, a set of people become better leaders and navigate this, and then they can understand, oh, here's how my career and money works together then. And this is my vision, then we can unlock those people who have some level of financial independence, and they want to turn back into this community or the world and solve these biggest problems. Imagine when we unlock a thousand of those people, what's the world going to look like then?

Shabnam Golmohammadi (01:05:08) - Yeah, totally.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (01:05:09) - Yeah, I'm right there with you. That's going to be huge. This is exciting because it is your newsletter, your weekly.

Christopher Nelson (01:05:16) - Well, and.

Christopher Nelson (01:05:17) - This is where I'm excited because, you know, you're one of a few people right? I think of Matt Doan, Morris Philly Jean, you know. And I could go through the list of others, you know, Darren Murph and all the people that have been on. Margaret Andrews who's been on my podcast, who is in my network, who wants to see this change, who wants to make this happen. I want to bring people together. And one of the things that I want to do going into next year is I want to do a live virtual event that will then eventually become a live event. And I'd love for you to hold a session.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (01:05:48) - Yeah, let's do it.

Christopher Nelson (01:05:50) - Let's do it. But before we wrap this up, you have to go through the fire round. Right? I'm going to hit you with this. Five questions.

Christopher Nelson (01:05:59) - And these are again, just some, some little, little small pieces of information. We can help people learn. What is the worst career advice you ever received?

Shabnam Golmohammadi (01:06:09) - To go into H.R. And I only say that because it's like people don't. You mentors don't always know what you really want to do. You can't just rely on mentors all the time. They only have their experience to share from. So that's why I think that was the worst case I got.

Christopher Nelson (01:06:28) - Going to H.R. and you're like, wait, but I think I hear what you're saying, which is, you know, sometimes our mentors can be myopic or have one lens on it's really you got it. You got to go survey the crowd and make sure you're doing your own work, too. Yeah.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (01:06:42) - That's right.

Christopher Nelson (01:06:43) - How do you keep learning?

Shabnam Golmohammadi (01:06:46) - Stay curious and learn about things that actually interest you. This you're not in school anymore. You get to choose your path. So figure out what it is that lights you up. And always stay curious about those things.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (01:06:59) - Have a beginner's mindset.

Christopher Nelson (01:07:02) - What is the advice you would give your younger self working in tech?

Shabnam Golmohammadi (01:07:07) - Nobody knows what they're doing, so stop thinking like everyone is better than you. Like seriously. Like don't put people on pedestals, you know? And that would be the best advice for myself, because that's what I used to do. And that was just really just draining.

Christopher Nelson (01:07:25) - Yeah. It's true.

Christopher Nelson (01:07:27) - What soft skill has helped your career the most?

Shabnam Golmohammadi (01:07:30) - Communication being. And I think I would give my mom credit for this because she was a leader in a tech company and she was like, I don't have a lot of time. Like, just give it to be clear and concise. And when you tell a ten year old that, I think it really leaves an impact on you and you're like, okay, I can't just ramble on. I got to be really I got to really get to the point here. And I think communication really did become a strength of mine.

Christopher Nelson (01:07:59) - And what is the worst money or investing advice you've ever received?

Shabnam Golmohammadi (01:08:05) - Yeah.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (01:08:05) - The worst advice I got on money was about spending, you know, like, oh, if you're making good money, just buy it. And it's like, no, that's, you know. And that wasn't it for my parents. But my parents really told me, do you need to have this thing? Is this really something you love to have? And that was very powerful for me. And I think as I started making more money, that advice after leaving and I started getting more advice around, just buy it, you can afford it, you know, and it's like, yes and no. I think that's probably the worst for me, though, the getting into patterns of overspending through that.

Christopher Nelson (01:08:44) - Through that mindset. Right. You can afford it. Just do it. Well. It's like, well does that align with my financial goals right?

Christopher Nelson (01:08:50) - Yeah. Right.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (01:08:51) - Totally.

Christopher Nelson (01:08:52) - To acquire that stuff. Well this.

Christopher Nelson (01:08:53) - Is great. Thank you so much. How can people find out more about you.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (01:08:57) - Yeah. So I'm pretty you know I hang it on LinkedIn. So find me on LinkedIn. I have a newsletter where I share tips for up loving your career as a woman in tech. Every week, all of those links are on LinkedIn and we can drop them here too. But that.

Christopher Nelson (01:09:15) - Is in the show.

Christopher Nelson (01:09:16) - Notes. Yep.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (01:09:17) - Yeah, that's where I play. I'm pretty much on one platform because I don't really like the other ones, if I'm being honest. So yeah. Thank you. Here.

Christopher Nelson (01:09:28) - Yeah. My pleasure. Well thank you so much. We appreciate you coming on. And thank you for sharing everything. We will see you next time.

Shabnam Golmohammadi (01:09:37) - Thanks, Christopher.

Christopher Nelson (01:09:38) - Thank you so much for listening. I would ask that you do one thing. If you can go to tech Careers and Money News, you can sign up for our latest publication in Tech and Money News. We're going to give you a weekly publication that gives you insight into tech careers and equity compensation. How do you trade your time and talent for equity? What are some of the skills that you need to understand the millionaire mindset? How do you grow your portfolio as you're growing your career and the skills that you need to manage it? Go sign up today and if you like Tech Careers and Money Talk, you're going to love Tech Careers and Money News.

Christopher Nelson (01:10:14) - Thank you. Bye.