047: Exploring Tech Careers in Europe: Amin Neeme's Perspective

00:00 - 00:24 | Amin:
It is life-changing. Someone coming from the Middle East, I'm originally Lebanese. You're part of a company like Google and you realize that, oh, I could move to a country of my choosing if I, with them, if I find a job there. It is life-changing when you gain a certain level of skills and you realize that more doors are open to you than they were a few years ago. And you have a lot more options. You get to choose which, what cities you get to live in.

00:26 - 01:32 | Christopher:

Welcome to the podcast for financially focused technology employees. Are you working for equity? Do you have questions on how your career and money work together? Then welcome. Every week we discuss strategies and tactics for how to grow your career, build wealth and reach your financial and lifestyle goals. Welcome to TechCareers and Money Talk. I'm your host, Christopher Nelson. I'm excited to introduce everybody today to Aman Neeme. Aman is an employee at Google. Yes, we all love and use Google every day. Don't lie. We all do. And he works in the partnership team in EMEA, which is Europe, Middle East, and Africa for the voice AI partnerships through Google Assistant and data partnerships. But the most interesting thing I think about Amin that we're excited to talk about today is not just working in big tech in Europe, but also how his early career in risk management and equity derivative sales have influenced the way that he thinks about personal finance. So Amin's somebody that I got to know on LinkedIn. I'm excited to introduce everybody to him. Amin, welcome to TechCruz Money Talk.

01:32 - 01:43 | Amin:

Thank you, Christopher. It's been, it's an honor to be here. I've been a listener for the past few months and really love the podcast. So I hope I can add another great episode to the long list.

01:44 - 02:10 | Christopher:

Thank you. I'm sure you can, because when you and I got online and we're just talking about personal finance and getting to know each other, when you walked through this, you know, what it's like to move to Europe and work in the different tech hubs, I thought to myself, this is something that tech employees in the United States would love to learn about. Why don't you sort of walk me through that overview and let's have a conversation about that.

02:10 - 02:27 | Amin:

Yeah, yeah, no, it's, I think, Tech in Europe is a very interesting scene and it kind of gets lost, let's say, in the headlines because the US is obviously where a lot of the innovation and a lot of these companies are founded. And then there's a lot of interest in the Far East and emerging markets. But Europe, I think, has a lot to offer.

02:28 - 03:14 | Christopher:

I really do too. And the thing is, is, you know, at one point my wife and I, I looked at taking an opportunity to go work in Norway for a multimedia company to be their chief information officer. But as we got over there and for us, as we spent time over there, you know, and even myself working for different companies, I know that, you know, London is a big hub. Dublin is a big hub. I know Switzerland has a big hub as well. Paris is coming online with a lot of this artificial intelligence, AI, but what is it like over there? I think for yourself, when you first moved to Europe, I know you landed in Dublin. What's sort of the Dublin environment like versus London versus where you are in Switzerland?

03:14 - 06:07 | Amin:

Yeah, I'm relatively new to Zurich. It's only been a year and a half, but I think Dublin is a great city to aim for, especially if you're an early career professional looking to get into tech, or you're a fresh graduate, because a lot of the the tech companies will have their Europe, Middle East and Africa headquarters in Dublin. So you have a lot of job opportunities for entry level, or like one to four year professionals, and you get exposed to a lot more diversity than maybe you would in any other place, I would say in the world, but that might be a bit of an exaggeration. But You know, you're walking in one building and you're going up the floors and one floor is like German speakers, Italians, French. Arabic, you know, Africa, Russia, Turkey. So you have this amazing mix of different people in a very small, you know, geographic location. And it has a bit of a college campus kind of vibe, right? Because everyone is in that 22 to 26, 27 age range. So it's a very good place to aim for if you're just getting started. And if you like it, you know, if you like Dublin, if you end up liking the culture there, and a lot of people do, you can have a great career, you know, because All of the big tech companies are there, all of them have these big offices. But I think the one main disadvantage is that a lot of people after a couple of years decide either to move on to the US or move back home or move to a bigger city. So the downside would be that every few years you have to kind of refresh your friend circle. So that's one of the, I would say the downsides of Dublin. London, I haven't lived there. I only recently visited for the first time, but it's a similar situation, right? So it's also all the big tech companies have their presence there. In general, the profile is for people who are a bit more senior. So with already three or four years of experience and a lot more senior leadership from what I've seen is based in London. So it's another really great place to end up in. I wouldn't be able to speak to what it's like to live there, but I have a lot of friends who moved and they absolutely love it. Zurich, on the other hand, is a bit different because you don't have a lot of the gigantic offices. Google would be an exception where there's a fairly big product and engineering hub. But Switzerland has a lot to offer in terms of startups. It has a lot of strong local companies as well, and they're doing a lot to kind of encourage innovation. You know, I think like Zug, which is a small town close to here is known as like the crypto valley of Europe. So it also has a lot to offer. But primarily for us, it was about the quality of life that you get here, you know, proximity to nature and that kind of stuff.

06:07 - 06:42 | Christopher:

And so going going back, it sounds like Dublin, right, especially when you're looking for those transition years, I think most of us myself, right out of college, I was excited to move to San Francisco to be in a city environment where on the weekend, you're getting the chance to mingle with people that are working for all these other exciting companies. It sounds like Dublin really gives you that environment as well. Did you mention when we had that conversation before, did you say was, is that the housing pretty compressed in Dublin? Is it hard to find housing there?

06:42 - 07:57 | Amin:

Yes. It seems like a trend across all major cities around the world. But Dublin is a pretty extreme case there. I saw like a ranking of least affordable cities and Dublin was somewhere close to the top and a big part of that is housing. Primarily, I think it's because everyone wants to live within walking distance of their jobs. So everyone wants to be in this one specific area. And public transport isn't as great an option as it is, for example, in Zurich. In Zurich, it's very common to live, let's say, an hour outside because you can hop on a train and work on the train and you're in the city. You might also get tax benefits from living outside of the city, but in Dublin, there aren't that kind of benefits. So that's, that's one of the situations that you end up in housing is pretty extreme. You know, I think when I, when I first moved there, you could, you would pay 30% of your income on rent, which isn't terrible if you, and you're sharing by the time we left, I know people who were paying like 40, 50%. Oh, wow. Yeah. On, uh, for rent. And you're talking about people who are relatively high earners, right? So they're, it's a tough situation to manage.

07:57 - 08:17 | Christopher:

Yeah, it takes a lot out, but then it sounds like though, when you transition to somewhere like Zurich, that area, that was part of your personal transition when you said, okay, we're, we're now spreading out. We want a little bit more space. We want to live outside the city and that it's a hub like that, that affords you that opportunity.

08:17 - 08:56 | Amin:

Yeah, it is definitely an option. Interestingly, that was part of the discussion before we moved to Zurich and then we elected to live like right in the middle of the city. because we got a pretty good deal. Um, but, um, yeah, primarily moving to Switzerland was it's, it is one of the more, most expensive cities in the world, Zurich, but. It's one of the more affordable places that I've actually lived just because the salaries versus the price makes sense. You know, I think like, for example, my wife and I find Zurich much more affordable than Dublin. It's more expensive, but it's more affordable. That makes sense.

08:56 - 09:37 | Christopher:

Well, it does. I mean, so let's let's double click into that. Because what I'm hearing you say is that, you know, because most large technology companies are going to have a salary per city that has to do with the cost of living. So what I'm hearing you say is, you live in Zurich, you're then going to get a, you know, a big tech salary that's equivalent to the cost of living there, which then nets out to make it affordable versus it sounds like, cause I know, you know, Dublin, I know Cork, some of those areas were viewed from the United States as, you know, low cost of living areas. So it sounds like the salaries haven't caught up with what's happening with the housing prices.

09:37 - 09:49 | Amin:

Yeah. Housing is primarily the driver of the costs, you know, it's just compared to 2015. And now I think they've gone up 50 60%.

09:49 - 09:53 | Christopher:

And so how did you break into working in Europe?

09:53 - 11:17 | Amin:

So it's a it's a by complete coincidence, to be honest, I was interning in Paris in HSBC at the time, so nothing to do with tech. And I get this email from my university. Google is organizing an event for Arabic speakers in Paris, in their Paris office. I was like, okay, that sounds cool. The only thing I knew about Google is that they have these really cool offices, you know, with slides and free food and stuff. So yeah, I applied and they, they invited us over and, um, I was surprised that they actually need people who are not engineers, you know, who are not technical because I couldn't figure out what you, why they would want business graduates. And then after that, there weren't actually any vacancies to apply to. So I left Paris a few weeks after that, I moved to Dubai, but it kind of stuck with me. And I remember kind of researching how AdWords works. And I thought, okay, I can do that. I guess I can work in sales. And I just applied for a role for an Arabic speaker in the small and medium business sales team. And that's how, that's how it started. I'd love to say like, Oh, I knew that tech was going to really take off in the next 10 years. And that was it. It seemed pretty cool. And I'm here nine years later, so pretty happy.

11:17 - 11:24 | Christopher:

And as a, as an entry level, uh, you know, European employee, did you get equity? Did you get RSUs?

11:24 - 12:45 | Amin:

Yeah. Yeah. So you do, that was part of the, That was part of the package. That was a very pleasant surprise, especially when you're first getting started in a company and you get this third line item, right? So there's your salary, there's your bonus, and then there's equity that vests over X amount of years. You're like, well, so now I have a vested interest in staying in this company over the long term. And there's these new factors that start to play into your mind where Let's say another company reaches out and they're like, oh, we'll give you 20% extra. But then you know that there's a stock that's going to vest and you believe in that stock long term. And equity starts to become a very important part of the conversation. One thing that I was disappointed to find out is that in Ireland, when your RSUs actually vest, they're taxed at 52%, right? So 52% of the stocks that vested during my time in Ireland were sold on vesting and they go off to pay off your taxes. So that's something to keep in mind, right? If you're moving from, I don't know, a country with more favorable tax benefits.

12:45 - 13:17 | Christopher:

Sure. Yeah. Like, like the United States, I know the United States, you know, you're going to have, you have federal rates. You also have some state tax rates. You live somewhere like Texas and Florida, no income tax. Uh, you know, it's, it's actually works out relatively well. Yeah. And again, I know that you're not a compensation expert, but I also know that you're a financially savvy guy. So do you know, are there countries that are more favorable to RSUs and stocks than Ireland, let's say? Yeah.

13:17 - 14:06 | Amin:

So I think the region that I'm most familiar with would be Europe, Middle East, Africa. From what I know, the most favorable would be somewhere like Dubai, just because there's no taxes, right? So there's no income tax, there's no tax on capital gains, there's no taxes on vesting. So that would be number one. Europe, I would say, you know, Switzerland is pretty favorable. But Switzerland is similar to the U.S. that each canton, which would be the equivalent of a state, has its own regulations and rules when it comes to taxes. But Switzerland doesn't have any capital gains tax. They have a wealth tax, which is relatively small. So Switzerland would also be pretty favorable, I would say.

14:06 - 14:14 | Christopher:

Oh, interesting. Do you have any insights into any of the other European countries, like France or Germany or UK?

14:14 - 15:19 | Amin:

I'm pretty high, I think. From what I've heard from most of my American colleagues and friends, when they hear about tax rates, they're like, oh, okay, this is pretty intense. There are benefits to it, right? I think in terms of if you decide to move from the US to working in Europe, maybe you're doing it because you want a second passport, maybe you're doing it because You want to live somewhere where it's a bit easier to visit three different continents. You know, Europe is maybe where you live. Africa is a plane away. South Africa is the same time zone as Switzerland, which is not something that intuitive to a lot of people. So you can work from Cape Town, right? You can go to the Middle East and you're one plane away. East Asia is relatively close. So, you know, maybe you want to experience living abroad and that's it. So, but in terms of compensation, from what I've heard and what I've seen, the US is still the best, the place to be, even when you factor in cost of living.

15:19 - 15:58 | Christopher:

But let's land on those experiences for a moment. I think going back to what you articulated in Ireland, that experience of you're in an actual building where there's people from all over the world that are working there. I definitely think that San Francisco, myself having lived and worked there, it's a fascinating experience because you have a lot of people that are versed in a lot of different technology. There's definitely a foreign element, but I don't think it's as, immersive? What are some of your big takeaways from having that experience?

15:58 - 16:52 | Amin:

I think that especially when you go through business school, or you read about different cultures and stuff, there's these, let's say, um, stereotypes, right? Like, oh, this, if you're dealing with this kind of, uh, person or a person from this specific region, this is how you, uh, you're supposed to deal with them that you're supposed to be less formal, uh, more formal, you know, there's less power. And my experience has been that at the core, you'll, you'll get by just fine by counting on. the core basics, you know, like being dependable, being honest, trying to understand where the other person is coming from, what are their needs, what are they're trying to accomplish. And then different, like all the other stuff is very, very secondary. So I think that was my, that was my learning.

16:53 - 18:42 | Christopher:

People are, you know, people at their core. I know for myself, I had the opportunity with Accenture in 2008, to go live and work in Tokyo. So I lived and worked in Japan. And I traveled, I was running a large project in Asia Pacific, that was in between Japan and China, and also covered Malaysia and Singapore. And the culture was very different from a language perspective. Alphabet perspective is what I struggle with. What I enjoy about Europe is at least I know the alphabet. It's definitely much more of a challenge. But what I found is if you can express empathy, if you can really try and understand where the other person is coming from, If you can learn more about the cultural context, right? The fact that in Japan, it's more about harmony than it is about individuals. And then there's some people that want to, in that culture, want to be individuals, right? And understanding that context. you can then relate and you can then be engaged and you can then build trust. And then you can also learn to lead. That was one of the things that I discovered there was how could I craft and shape my leadership style to be accepted in the culture and then to become a leader there, which had a series of challenges, but they were also fun to overcome and to find the other side. I'm sure that for yourself, landing and working in Dublin and then now in Switzerland, and my understanding is that your scope of responsibility is other European countries and there's some travel and stuff. I'm sure that has to be a side benefit as well too.

18:42 - 20:12 | Amin:

Yeah, it is a big benefit to it because one of the things that I kind of regret not doing when I was in Dublin is getting exposure to different markets, because I stayed there for seven years. And it would have been nice to maybe do a couple of years of Middle East, North Africa, maybe a couple of years with the UK, maybe a couple of years with France, because I speak French, and it really rounds you out as a person. And what I like about this role is that I work with partners in the UK, partners in France, partners in Germany, partners in the Nordics, so all around Europe. and on different products. So I get to work with people in the US and people in Australia and Singapore. So I think that kind of exposure is probably one of the biggest perks, I would say, of what I'm currently doing right now. In terms of travel, I never turn down the opportunity to hop on a train and go to Paris. It's a city that I love. I get to visit London for the first time, as I said, that was because of work. So it's, yeah, I think that's one of the cool things about working in Europe is that everything is so close, you know, like four hours by train from Zurich, you can be in Munich, you can be in Milan, you can be in Paris. And that's just like direct trains. You know, if you want to be a bit more adventurous, you can go all the way to Amsterdam or Copenhagen or Hamburg. So yeah, definitely.

20:12 - 20:43 | Christopher:

You know, those to me, right, when you think about giving up some level of compensation, there is a huge benefit in having some of these experiences that you're not going to get anywhere else, right? Here, you're not going to get that level of experience in the United States where you're truly dropped into a completely different culture that has a different language, that has a different cuisine, that has a different history. That is some of the advantages, I think, to living and working in Europe. Yeah.

20:43 - 21:44 | Amin:

And I think it's, you know, tech is a very interesting space to be in Europe because if you look at the traditional industries, Europe has leading companies, like top 10 companies in all of those industries, like banking, automotive, like telecommunication. And tech is an area where there are a lot of tech European companies. but this is an area where they're kind of now going, okay, we need to actually create the right environment for European homegrown unicorns and giants. And AI is probably one of the most high profile cases of this. So it is cool to be part of this attempt at a transformation. So it's, I would say, That's obviously aside from getting exposed to the different cultures and the history that Europe has to offer.

21:44 - 22:34 | Christopher:

This is one of the things that I want to explore in the next few years is I'm really trying to take this message of working for technology companies, getting equity in the companies. I don't see that going away. I see that new companies coming up, if they want to attract and retain the best talent, they're going to have to provide equity compensation. I think that's going to grow as technology grows and how this evolves in Europe, in Asia and becomes this you know, global machine, I'm fascinated. Like right now, I'm hearing so much. I've heard from a couple people that, you know, Paris is really becoming more of a startup hub, especially now with, you know, the AI movement. I also know there's, you know, a startup scene, I think in Malaga, I've been hearing down in Spain.

22:34 - 23:48 | Amin:

Yeah, Sweden as well. You know, Switzerland, I think France. for the past few years has been trying to become more pro-entrepreneurship, pro-making it easier for people to start their own companies. And AI is probably, again, one of the latest manifestations of this. I think a few weeks ago, they passed something called the EU's Artificial Intelligence Act. And France was actually one of the countries pushing for less regulation to make it easier for startups to get started and to operate. So that was a very interesting point of view to see France have. And it comes down to the fact that they have a lot of very promising startups. I think Mistral AI is probably one of the latest ones. Microsoft last week, was it, or two weeks ago announced a round of investments in them to help them develop their large language model called the Lucia, which I think is a chat. Sorry, I think so. It's, it's very interesting to see.

23:48 - 24:16 | Christopher:

I think so. And I'm fascinated to see where this goes and how this evolves. And, and really, you know, this can become a global journey for some people, because I ultimately, I personally believe that the ability to build a strong skill set and move globally with that skillset will give you so many experiences that will just make you a more responsible and more in tune global citizen.

24:16 - 25:13 | Amin:

I agree. It's a, it is life-changing, you know, I think, especially for, sorry, someone coming from the Middle East, I'm originally Lebanese. Um, you know, when you, you're part of a company like Google and you realize that, Oh, I could move to a country of my choosing. If I with them, if I find a job there, I think there's, you feel that this is a huge blessing for someone who had very limited options in terms of international mobility most of their life. So it's, it is life-changing when you gain a certain level of skills and you realize that more doors are open to you than they were a few years ago. And you have a lot more options. You get to choose which, what cities you get to live in. Oh, because I like the weather here better than there. And maybe the nature here. than there and work-life balance. I think it's a very privileged spot to be, and it's something not to take lightly.

25:13 - 25:28 | Christopher:

100%. I think that's great. I am curious, how much do you think mobility is impacted by knowledge of languages? Because I know that you came out of university, were you trilingual when you came out?

25:28 - 27:13 | Amin:

Yes, Arabic, English, and French. Um, it does, it does have an impact, I would say. Um, because let's say, for example, you want to live in, um, in Spain and you want to work there, uh, and your job is you're, you're someone like me who works in sales or partnerships. You're less likely to find jobs than if you speak the local language. I think in certain countries, it's less of an issue, obviously Ireland, uh, London, you know, not an issue. I think the Nordics, for example, not as much of an issue because they're pretty comfortable with English, the Netherlands as well. But then, yeah, there are certain countries where it is an issue. Spain, for example, France, Italy, Germany. And I think it's also something that it's a tough one to balance because on one hand, European countries, like Germany said it outright, they said that it's difficult to attract talent, the best talent. language is a barrier because it's not the most widely spoken language, right? And at the same time, they don't want to lose what makes them them. Unique, right? That's the balance that I think Europe is trying to strike in terms of talent attraction. In general, people are attracted to Europe. I think it's a wonderful place to live. But there's other factors as well, like what kind of career opportunities are bottlenecked because of visa issues, they're bottlenecked because I don't speak the language. If I wanna start my own company, how easy is it? Is it a lot of bureaucracy? Am I gonna get taxed to not make it because of that? So those are all things that play a part.

27:13 - 27:45 | Christopher:

Yeah, and it's so important. Well, I'm excited. We're headed over this summer. I think I shared with you, we're gonna go to a co-living, co-working space in Galicia. And this is part of, we're raising our boys trilingual, so. at some point we'll either be live and in person, but you can chat in French with them. I haven't taken on French yet, but I speak Spanish, but they speak Spanish, French, and English. And that's part of what our goal is. My wife's a Francophone, so you guys can chop it up.

27:45 - 27:51 | Amin:

It's a very important skill, to be honest. It's just a good one to have, at least now until

27:52 - 29:10 | Christopher:

Well, I think so. Well, I think, yeah, until until we get those translation, you know, machines that, you know, can can translate it all for us. But yeah, up until then, we'll need to have that language under control. Well, this was great. I'm glad that we had a chance to talk about what it's like to live and work in tech for Europe. We're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, I want to really walk through you know, the financial side of things. I think that you have a very interesting perspective you're writing on LinkedIn around your simple and balanced financial plan. I'm going to take a quick break and we'll be right back. All right, and welcome back. We're here for the second half TechCareers and Money Talk with Amin. And we want to talk about your simple and balanced financial plan. Now, my understanding, the way that you told me the story is, when you started off in your in your career, and then your tech career, you started making a lot of money, you had a very sort of complex way that you were trying to manage it. And then you found that you got overwhelmed, and you realize, no, I need something that's simple and foundational. And this is part of You know, I know you do a lot of writing on LinkedIn on, on macro economics and other things, but give us some more, give us an overview of what this, you know, simple and balanced financial plan is. Yeah.

29:10 - 32:58 | Amin:

So, uh, I think the, the foundational error that I had going into my career is that I always thought that a bigger salary will take care of all your financial problems, right? Like, Oh, you know, you're just one good job away from figuring it out. You're just one promotion away and then you're. three, five years into your career and you're like, okay, this, this isn't like these problems aren't going away. And, um, what I've been doing is, isn't working. So I wasn't sweating the little things, right? Like your budget, your expenses, that's not something that you need to worry about because once you get a 20% raise or whatever it is, you'll be fine. And then suddenly, you know, you're still, uh, trying to figure out where all the money went at the end of the month. So that's one thing. And then the other aspect was. Well, I worked in finance. So now, if I apply what I know, and, you know, stock picking and managing my own investments, then I'll be able to do well. But you're, you're struggling on two fronts, because on one one end, you don't have as much money left over to invest and make real gains. And on the other hand, you have a full time job, and then you want to kind of sit down and research, right, and you end up not actually outperforming the market, and you're not doing that well, and that there's no, and that doesn't even factor in what you're missing out on by dedicating so much time to it, especially if it's not something that you're passionate about, you know, if you don't love researching publicly listed companies and buying the stocks, right, and looking when to buy and when to sell, I'm not sure that's the best use of your time. And I'm not sure that's something you're going to be very successful at, right. So that's That was the set the scene. So what ended up happening is that I ran across this article that talked about Warren Buffett's bet against like, who can outperform the S&P 500 over 10 years. And basically that the hedge funds, the hedge fund that took him up actually lost the challenge. And I thought, okay, well, you know, so index funds seem like a pretty good, simple, you know, diversified way to invest and you just buy and forget and you don't have to have a big investment. So that was my investment strategy at the time. I was like, okay, I'm just going to buy and hold index funds for the longterm, but I also need to figure out the basics, right? So what are the basics? It was like, my money is supposed to do four things for me. It's supposed to cover my expenses. it's supposed to protect me from emergencies, it's supposed to work for me, right? So yeah, compound over time, and it's supposed to improve my quality of life. So and then I started to kind of dig into all four of these pillars and what they actually mean for me at the time. And that's what I've stuck with for the past, I would say, five, six years. And the improvement that I've seen in terms of mental health in terms of free time has been exponential. And it's kind of what led me to write about finance. But if there were any core tenets, it's focus on the basics and be honest with yourself. If you're not really passionate about, you know, finding the right investment, you're not going to be successful. I had just as an anecdote, a friend reached out and he was like, you know, why can Warren Buffett outperform the market, but we can't? And it was like, well, he loves it and it's his full-time job. You know, you're an engineer and it's, you're kind of interested in this. So I think those are the kind of approaches that I have in terms of my financial planning.

32:59 - 34:08 | Christopher:

I think that that realization, right, the realization of the time and commitment that's necessary to do it well. And also really being honest, like how much of your heart is really in it? Like how much do you really want to dedicate to do that versus I actually want to be out living. I want to be out, you know, with friends on a Saturday night and enjoying my weekend socializing than sitting at home grinding through some reports. And it's so important because the reality is, and I think this is one of the things that I'm excited has come to light in the last number of years, is that if you have a very foundational plan of we're going to start moving into some index funds, some global market funds, you know, some things that are low cost, that are very efficient, and we just continue to invest in them, we're going to get 90% of that versus I'm going to try and sweat and bleed over all of this stuff. And maybe I'll make an additional 5% or worst case is, I don't even do as well as those other ones.

34:08 - 35:51 | Amin:

Yeah, no, 100%. And that's the, and I think that the one of the key realizations is that simplicity often takes more conviction to stick to than like having an overly complex strategy. And that's a very common thing I see with a lot of friends, let's say, who reach out and they're like, Oh, you know, what do you think about this investment idea? And what about this stock? And what about that stock? And then if you dig down and a little deeper, well, okay, you've bought Nvidia, how much have you put behind that $1,000? Or, oh, how much have you invested in Solana or whatever crypto 500, 600. And then you end up spread out across a hundred different things with a few hundred there, you know, you know, 10 bucks, even if you're buying like an NFT, you know, like one of those cheaper coins or whatever it is. And you're just hoping that one of them is going to 10,000 X, but In reality, let's say you buy Nvidia for a thousand and that's the extent of money that you're going to put behind it because you don't have that much conviction. And then at 10Xs, you have a thousand in five years or whatever it is. But if you're committed and you're like, you know what, I believe in index funds. I actually believe that the world and it's publicly listed companies are going to be doing better in 10 years than they are today. Then every month you're putting in a little bit more. right? You end up with really powerful, life-changing results in five, 10 years. So that's also something like simplicity needs a lot of conviction. And I feel sometimes that the lack of conviction breeds complexity.

35:52 - 36:39 | Christopher:

That's a really powerful statement right there. People do need to have some level of conviction that these simple, straightforward fundamentals will work. And the great news is there's a ton of data. there's a ton of data that supports it out there. So I would definitely encourage that people get educated on that. And I think when you have, you know, the the investing fundamentals over here that are very simple, and then you also complement that with, you know, what I call good financial hygiene, right, making sure that you've got clarity on your budget, where your dollars are going, and you're maximizing, you know, how much you're saving, those two things working together, create a powerful combination that can really you know, grow your wealth.

36:39 - 37:56 | Amin:

Yeah, no, I think, you know, there is, it also takes a lot of, like, self-reflection to sometimes say, okay, this isn't the lifestyle that I can afford, right? Or even, why am I spending so much money on doing this thing on a weekly basis? You know, it could be brunch, let's say, take it as an example, because that was my case. Or it was like, why am I having two brunches every weekend? When it's not even, I don't enjoy the food as much, right? It's not my favorite kind of food. And what I enjoy is actually hanging out with my friends. So I'd rather meet up with them for a walk. I'd rather do stuff with them. I'd rather have coffee with them than go and have brunch. Right? Like that sounds like such a, such a simple thing, but it's two meals. Let's say it's a few hundred a month. It's life changing over 30 years, but it also puts you in the habit of really asking yourself what actually makes me happy, what improves my life. I'd rather spend those few hundred extra or whatever it is on traveling, on learning something new, on maybe like extra MMA classes, whatever it is that actually makes you go, man, I'm really happy I spent money on that.

37:56 - 39:27 | Christopher:

It's true. And I think reflection on where your money is going is really important. And I think as you get older, I don't know. Like I think for myself, I've been on that journey too. I mean, I was just thinking about like when I was younger, I used to buy a lot of different like name brand clothes was sort of the thing for me. And then at one point I realized like, I don't, you know, and maybe it's because I married a beautiful woman and I was like, I don't need to impress anybody anymore. I don't know what. You start changing those habits and those styles. And then I think, yeah, once you start having kids, especially we have boys and they're eating so much, I'm like, man, food is expensive. What else do I, to your point, what else do I really need versus do I want? And then, yeah, there is that whole concept of what of these dollars, what are gonna, or euros, what's gonna make me the happiest? What is going to bring me the most joy in investing in that? No, I completely agree. How do you think, I'm curious, because you came into this working for equity and you've been there for nine years, but I think that working for equity is this, people don't value it as much, but I think it's an incredible way to build wealth because wealth is built through what? Buying appreciating assets or acquiring appreciating assets. And you can do that three ways. You can buy them, you can build them, you can be the founder of the startup, or you can trade for them. And how much of an impact does that have on you personally?

39:29 - 41:44 | Amin:

It's, it is, I think the, the challenge with, uh, the equity is that, uh, when you first get started and it's first starts to divest, especially if your entry level is that it doesn't seem like that much. Right. So maybe you have a few thousand, especially after Ireland's 52%. Yeah. You know, it's not that much. So, um, you know, there's. Going through those early years where you're like, Oh, it's only a few shares. I'll just sell them to fund this expense that I didn't plan for properly. And then when you do the math in hindsight and you realize, Oh, okay. If I had held onto those, they would have been 30% higher or 20% higher. over the years, I think like by the time I hit those three, four years, obviously I didn't like just full disclosure didn't sell everything, but you know, like there was a big part of it that I was like, Oh, you know, this is where I would actually, what I would rather do with it. You realize what the opportunity cost is. Right. And I think it's, it also, you, you end up having much more of a vested interest in the company. Because you know, you you care about the bottom line, not just because of your for your job security, but for your long term prosperity, right? And you end up with your idea, you end up working in a company for, let's say, 10 years and accumulate a certain amount of money. And then it becomes a responsibility that you know, you look at that number and uh, in your account, whatever that is. And it might not be impressive for certain people, but for other people, you're like, this is life changing. You know, there are literally amounts that in certain parts of the world you could retire on or live off of for like 10 years. Right. So yeah, it is due to, uh, become more aware that, you know, it pushes you to become more responsible, more appreciative. And it makes you think about, uh, money and wealth in a completely different way. Like, how do I protect this? How do I turn this into something that's actually worth it? Because once it's actually a substantial amount, it's not something that you would sell to fund the trip to a vacation somewhere. It becomes something that can change the next 30, 40 years of your life.

41:46 - 42:31 | Christopher:

Right. And you walked us through what I think happens with a lot of technology employees. I think especially the ones that go to work for big tech, when you're getting your first portions of equity in these very small amounts, you don't think to yourself, oh, this is actually a stock portfolio that over time, this long term view, I'm getting Google shares at, you know, 50 bucks a share. I don't know if this is true or not, but I'm just, you know, using this for an example. And okay, then they go to $300 a share or wherever they tend to end up at. What if you had to speak to your younger self who is getting this first these first equity shares? What are some of the things that you would you'd tell younger?

42:31 - 43:49 | Amin:

And this is really valuable. I think that's the, you know, it's, um, I think that will be, this is unlike anything you've ever been paid with before, because this is something that could double and triple and quadruple over the next few years. So just be aware of that. I think that's the number one thing, be aware of the, you know, the responsibility that you have. Um, and I think the second thing would be. Well, that's like hindsight is 20 20. Like I would try to give him stuff that is not does not require hindsight. But like, I think I know that it's valuable. And I think this is only one like, as you said, this is only one way of acquiring equity, right? So you now you also have enough disposable income to actually buy equity, right? So those would be like, at least take two of those three boxes that you mentioned in terms of acquiring equity. Because funny enough, I think one of the worst pieces of advice that I actually got is don't worry too much about saving when you're 20, between your graduation and 30 or whatever it is, because you save twice as much between 30 and 35. That was one piece of advice that I got.

43:49 - 43:51 | Christopher:

And it's true if you're not invested.

43:52 - 44:21 | Amin:

Right. If you're not investing, you know, yeah, if you're just keeping them in the bank, yeah, it doesn't make much of a difference. But if you actually start investing, when you're like 20, you need to invest a few hundred every month for 20 years or something, and then you're set for life. Well, if you start doing it in your 30s, just later, you have to invest five times more, whatever it is. So I think that would be the main things, like just really look at those RSUs and, you know, look at them go, so to speak.

44:21 - 45:16 | Christopher:

Right. Here's a couple of pieces that I would add is I think it's important that for young technology employees who are getting their first tranche of equity, that they realize that this is fractional ownership in the company. So you are a part owner. And so there's, there's the opportunity then to act like one. And if everybody who's getting these equity shares, which you know, is everybody in in some of these companies today, if everybody was acting like an owner, then you will see amazing growth like you've never seen before really well. Yeah. And then always remember to that wealth is created through concentration in an asset. So you're going to get all of this concentration, but it is kept, maintained and grown through diversification. So just remember, you're going to get it in concentration, but you want to start then moving it over to this diversification later on, that can grow and support you over time.

45:16 - 46:13 | Amin:

And it is it's a tough, it's a tough one. The kind of ingrain or accept because especially like the bull market for tech stocks in the past, you know, 15 years has been so good that, you know, convincing someone or even myself going, okay, well, I should be actually investing in you know, index funds are looking at alternative investments once I hit a certain number, because I need to protect that wealth and turn it into maybe something more stable and cash flowing. It's not an easy sell, right? Like, we live in the age of oh, why don't you buy this thing that's gonna 100x. So convincing people to go for something that doesn't have as much, you know, capital gains, right? And less and more stability and predictability is, yeah, it's not the easiest.

46:13 - 46:55 | Christopher:

It's not. And I'm curious, you know, you're being a financial educator, you know, how do you, how do you think that we start educating people? Because this is something I'm very curious about. And, you know, one of the things that, you know, you know, I've tried to do is, is number one, start sharing, you know, portfolio strategy that says, you know, here's how I think about things. Number one. Number two is writing a different message to myself, which is boring, having boring investments will actually lead to a more satisfying existence because you're not gonna be writing these crazy ups and downs.

46:55 - 48:42 | Amin:

Yeah, I think the key thing is keep doing what you're doing and other people are doing, which is write for the people who are, let's say, one step behind you in that journey, right? Because maybe if you're, maybe, maybe it is a process that people have to go through, right? So maybe someone who's just graduating and has that first paycheck, and it's enough to cover their expenses, but they need to find out that they're like lifestyle creep is actually a real thing, and it's going to drain your investments. And then they find someone who resonates with a message, and they start to get it together. And then they start to invest and put it in index funds because they're still young and there's so much room to grow and they can take those ups and downs and those risks. And then once they reach maybe a certain age, which I think I'm getting there, you're like, well, actually I want more stability. I want something that if I decide to retire, let's say at 45 or whatever it is, I'm not as worried about the stock market crashing and taking 10 years to rebound, because then how am I supposed to withdraw 4% to cover for my, for my lifestyle, right? So maybe it is a phase. And I think, I think like, maybe there's no one path fits all. And there's always room for course correction, unless you've done something absolutely terrible, right? So I think it's, it is, you know, unless you've done something really bad, there's no turning back. But for the most part, I think building on those habits and letting them kind of naturally develop is a really important one. Different people will find different paths.

48:42 - 50:29 | Christopher:

I think that's true. I also think that it is around, you know, the thing that's become clear to me is it really is around a portfolio structure and building, you know, the more I iterate on this, the more I realize like building it as a business And in this business, it also goes to a couple things. It goes to this whole quadrant that I think of, of you wanna have low risk growth, which I consider index funds. Like that's low risk growth because it's well diversified. And then you also have low risk income, which I think there's a suite of products that people can choose from out there. Then as you start moving, getting more dollars, you start moving into the medium risk and the high risk. And it reminds me of one of the uh interviews I did with lit and yahav Which I think goes back to like your this whole simple and foundational is is you want to have your low risk things in vehicles that are Simple and foundational that don't need a lot of care and feeding because you want to spend your time and effort as your portfolio grows Managing the things that are higher risk where there's more risk there because that's where you're going to want to be more present in the selection of those assets and the overseeing of those assets, whatever those may be. It could be you buying into and being an owner of a small business that somebody else is running. It could be a different type of fund, et cetera. But that's how I'm starting to think about it is I'm, I mean, this Nobody ever showed me how to build a portfolio that can support myself and my family. So it's, this is an evolving thing. And it's in, it's through conversations with people like yourself that I'm constantly thinking through how I'm, you know, how I'm thinking about it, building it and growing it.

50:29 - 50:43 | Amin:

Yeah. Likewise. Right. So, you know, as it is, it was very influential for me, let's say to, to hear people talk about, like yourself and Maurice, Maurice Filogen.

50:43 - 50:43 | Christopher:

Filogen.

50:43 - 50:45 | Amin:

Yeah. Yeah.

50:45 - 50:55 | Christopher:

Well, well, you know, his, his parents are Haitian. So there's a French pronunciation. I'm going to, I'm going to go with the English pronunciation. You go with the French pronunciation and we'll, we'll, we'll get both.

50:55 - 51:56 | Amin:

Yeah. So like anyway, so it's like hearing POVs like that, that makes you think, okay, I see what this is. I think like in terms of index funds. Yeah. I think longterm you would be, I would beat out. stock picking as, I mean, right. I mean, as a stock picker gets beaten by, I mean, the index fund investor 10 out of 10 times, but there is like, there is a path forward. And maybe, you know, let's say five years ago, I wouldn't have felt that this is actually accessible for me. Right. And then, because my perception was that you would need a certain amount to invest in. And then as you kind of get to a certain stage in life, you're like, well, actually they're more accessible than I thought they were. And that's the role of Or let's say we're lucky to have people who are at that next stage sharing back information as opposed to keeping it in like a closed box and going, I don't want anyone to know. As if there's like a certain number of deals and everyone's going to be, that's it, they're going to max out.

51:57 - 53:07 | Christopher:

Well, and I don't know if you listened to that. I think it was episode 19 or 20, the, the alternative investments in private equity here, but it was legally, legally before 2012, a lot of private equity, like you had to be in a closed network to do it. It's really because of the jobs act of 2012, we can talk about it more. So I always thought that was fascinating is that the laws kept private equity private. And you're right, there is a lot more education out there that people can get today. And I think it's important, you know, and you and I were talking about this before this interview, where we're all on this journey. And I think when we're in that first phase, it is the simple and foundational, like get your basic budgeting, and planning in order so that you can make sure that you're carving out the stuff that you want to invest and that's not going to bleed back in, that you're actually starting to build this portfolio that's going to be your business. Then the managing of that portfolio after you get it to a certain size and you've covered some foundational things, now I want more risk or now I want more diversification into income producing vehicles. That's then another part of the journey.

53:08 - 54:07 | Amin:

Yeah, again, I think there is a, I wish I could say, oh, you know, this is a blueprint where everyone's going to be convinced and everyone's going to be willing and capable of going down it successfully. But I think, yeah, like as long as people cover those basics, at least we're already making a lot of people financially a lot healthier and improving their well being. Right. So you just look at the numbers on credit card debt and all that stuff. And you're like, okay, there's so much good to be done just by covering those bases. So yeah, but for people who have gotten past that there's a whole world right that I'm just kind of getting wrapping my head around. So yeah, but it's, it's very exciting. And it's a beautiful thing, like to think of, you know, what you get to do with your resources as your own business, right?

54:07 - 55:04 | Christopher:

So, right. Yeah. And how you can grow it and then and then ultimately pass it on to the next generation. Exactly. Yeah. Well, Amin, thank you so much for the time. We're gonna have to put a bow in it. I know that you and I could keep chit-chatting about this stuff for hours because we are passionate about it. And the one thing I always appreciate about you is that, you're right, this is a journey to financial health and well-being. And the healthier, the more we can share this fundamental information so that people can understand what it means to just be foundationally healthy, That's ultimately where we want to take people. And then, hey, if you want to go and take that to the next level, again, this is why TechCareers and Money Talk is here. I'm very appreciative for that. Thank you. Well, we're going to wrap it up with some fire round questions. I got five questions we're going to walk you through real quick. What was the worst career advice that you ever received?

55:04 - 55:18 | Amin:

Stay for two more years and then you'll get a good job. I knew I was in the wrong role in the wrong industry. And someone told me to stay two years because I could get a better paying job in the same role, same industry, different company. Terrible. Terrible.

55:18 - 55:23 | Christopher:

If you're in the wrong here, get off. How do you, how do you keep learning?

55:23 - 55:48 | Amin:

I think two folds, not follow like my natural curiosity. You know, so there's not topics that I'm naturally interested in. And I, like, it just happens that their finance and, you know, uh, macro geopolitics, uh, related. And, uh, I also try to reflect on what are my gaps and like force myself to get better at something.

55:48 - 55:53 | Christopher:

So that's great. That's really important. What do you do to recharge?

55:53 - 56:25 | Amin:

Uh, block time. with the most important people, right? So make sure that, you know, if I'm talking to my wife or having dinner with my wife, I'm like 100% there. If it's my parents or my sisters, I'm 100% there, right? So nothing else, focus on one thing at a time. Block time out for myself, usually very early in the morning when I wake up to do the things that I like. And then I like exercise. I like running, lifting weights and the occasional MMA class.

56:25 - 56:32 | Christopher:

That's good. Yeah, exactly. Keep sharp. What's the advice that you would give your younger self working in tech?

56:32 - 56:55 | Amin:

Focus on what you can control. That's it. There's a lot of things that are outside of your control. Sometimes you'll do everything right and the outcome might be good. Sometimes you might do everything right and the outcome might be bad and vice versa. All those combinations are true. Just focus on what you control and doing the right thing. Yeah, that would be the main one.

56:55 - 57:01 | Christopher:

That's so important. And then let's wrap it up with what is the worst money or investing advice you ever received?

57:01 - 57:22 | Amin:

I just shared it. It's the don't worry about saving between the ages of 20 and 30 because you'll make twice as much between 30 and 35. Only true if you don't invest, right? And if all goes well, maybe your 20s are going to be the best years of your life. And then there's going to be a financial crisis and you'll never make that much money again.

57:23 - 57:24 | Christopher:

Right. You never know.

57:24 - 57:31 | Amin:

I wish I could wrap it up with a more positive note, but that's the one.

57:31 - 57:52 | Christopher:

Well, I mean, I think we can do that. I think we can do that in the sense that, you know… Number one is follow Amin on LinkedIn. I'm going to make sure and put the LinkedIn link in the show notes. And yeah, let's talk a little bit about, you know, some of the, some of the cool stuff that you're writing about. Let's, let's end on that.

57:52 - 59:18 | Amin:

I think, so there's, there's two types of content that I actually write about most frequently. And that's analysis of current news, right? So I look at. different things that are happening now, whether it's in tech, whether it's in finance, economics, I try to steer clear of politics, but that can also sometimes factor in. And the main goal of writing about that type of content is to kind of take the urgency away actually from the headlines. I think what the headlines try to do is they try to make us think that everything is super important, everything is super critical, everything is going to have a massive impact on our lives. Then when you kind of really drill into it, you realize that, Oh, it's what happened is interesting. It's significant, but it's probably not like life changing. It's important to understand the dynamics and forces that are making it happen, but not everything is panic inducing. So that's number one. And then number two is usually like finance and investment concepts. Uh, and I tried to break it down with stories, uh, try to make it accessible for people who have never. studied finance or never been interested in finance, and I hope successfully. And then you'll find the odd, like work update, you know, like stuff that I'm working on. But it's primarily, primarily business news and investment concepts.

59:18 - 01:00:03 | Christopher:

Yeah, and I would encourage everybody to check it out because it's always insightful. It's always written with a nice little fun twist to it as well. So thank you. I hope so. It is. No, it really is. And thank you so much for joining us today. And thank you everybody for tuning in. And we'll see you next time. Thanks. Thank you so much for listening to that episode. Appreciate you so much. I just want to ask you one thing. Our podcast is grown through reviews. So please go to techcareersandmoneytalk.com. That's techcareersandmoneytalk.com. You can go to the reviews tab and you can leave us a review there or on Apple podcast or Spotify, wherever you listen. Thank you so much.